WILEY

interview: Dan & Alex
photos: Alex

We found ourselves on the floating suburb / hi-rise cluster that is the Isle Of Dogs, at the bottom of a block of flats, pressing the buzzer repeatedly. The guy from Big Dada informed us: "when I left to meet you he was running a bath". Eventually we make our way up, where Wiley greeted us quickly but warmly and invited us in: "I'm so glad you're grime fans".

Start at the beginning of your Mcing and producing career

To be honest I was really young. I was watching reggae people hosting and chatting on the mic, and I was trying to do that. But as I got older r'n'b and hiphop, and new jack swing and all that sort of stuff was coming into play. And then I heard hardcore, jungle and drum ‘n' bass, and when I heard that, that sent me mad, because I couldn't believe how they got the ragga samples and looped them up. Then I came through jungle – didn't get there, quite – and then heard garage, and started to listen to garage. And when I was in garage was exactly when grime merged. So that was the path, really.

So you've seen a lot of scenes come and go.



Yeah – yep. I'm a believer that things do come and go.

What are you going to use from those past experiences to put into this album? Has it been a long journey to get here?

Yes, very very long. It feels like a long journey. But this is what I've learned not to do, so far: before I didn't really want to do press, I just wanted to stay out with my mates and spend money and deh deh deh. That's one lesson. I didn't want to put hours into the studio – you know if you're a ‘studio rat' that means you put hundreds of hours in there, and that's why Timbaland is Timbaland, or someone is someone.

I wanted to be out a bit, in the public eye. I didn't want to be famous, but in a way, I knew I was famous. Because I wanted to be out, in the clubs, or out here, and my manager's telling me I have to do this over there. So I got a bit messed up in the scene. But I've learned how to control myself more, I've learned... not to judge others; there's loads of different stuff that is going to go to make me a man, to say ‘right, I'm a man now, I'm not actually a boy anymore, I have to spread this message or spread that message'. So yeah, I have learned a lot.

One mistake was you need a manager. I wish I had one so badly; not just any manager, but one that you've built up a rapport with over the years.

That's something Logan Sama was saying to us, that it's not artists' jobs to manage themselves.

Exactly. You can't!

Did you have a manager in the XL period?

I did. Dizzee's manager was my manager. I took Dizzee to him, and obviously Dizzee was big at that time, and he could see the vision for Dizzee. To be honest I wouldn't have any other manager except that manager and that was my problem. Because that manager knew me and I knew him and we knew where I was headed. And then Dizzee's vision was further than mine at the time, and he had to take Dizzee to where he was going, but left us all behind, if you like. But that manager was the best manager for anyone in grime at the time.

Why do you think grime's success in the aftermath of that key moment – around 2003 – only ended up coming in fits and starts?

Labels did try and get it over to the mainstream, we can't blame them. The way I listen to our music today – and plus the music I was doing at that time weren't really going to go over there, so I can't argue. But one thing that has happened in this country is we've all made footsteps and we've made blueprints, and now when I watch Channel U, there's a million kids on there doing their stuff... they're not even copying me or copying Dizzee, but what they're doing is doing their thing. And no one can stop you from doing your thing can they?

When there's an outlet like Channel U...

You've got to use it. So I'm sitting down indoors thinking I've got to flood Channel U like I flooded the record shops. So I'm doing like 15 videos off my own back. I'm going to flood Channel U along with what my label does in terms of videos. Just to make it... powerful. I just want to look powerful this year, and next year, and.. (tails off)

Do you feel like all the kids are competition?

No not for me. But the thing is that if I'm amongst them, they think they are. A kid could think he's better than me and I'll just sit here and think ‘you know what, he's not'. But if he is or he's not, that's not the issue – I'm a man. Why am I worrying if he is or not? And that was exactly why I had to come out of the grime scene because kids thought I was their age.

Well you must be tired of every new young MC thinking ‘okay how am I going to get noticed?' and gunning for you



Yeah, definitely. I'd appreciate it more if they said ‘let's try and work together'. You know?

Can you see that happening though? Or is beef too important to its energy?

Grime will become... it will become. Grime just needs to filter out all the... like, take drum ‘n' bass – I was in drum ‘n' bass, and then I got filtered out. I can remember that.

Are people in grime reaching out enough to the mainstream in 2007?

Grime in 2007 is at the highest point it's ever been before. That's exactly why I stepped off as well. I thought ‘right, it's as high as it's going to go, I've got as much credit as I'm ever going to get, there ain't nothing else I can give' so grime is like a juicy apple. But this is the difference: in grime there's a lot of bad moods and angry songs, and it goes into the kids' body, and then they're angry as well, which is a mistake. Not a mistake, cause maybe when I've been angry I've done an angry tune, I've let it out.

People need to look at grime as a whole and think ‘right, I'm going to do an album, it's going to have 11 different tunes, which are all about 11 different things and not just go ‘I was at that rave and that boy got stabbed and deh deh deh'. They need to look and see what they're going to talk about. A lot of them are fresh from school so they're writing good stuff anyway, you know? They're thinking. So Grime is at its best at the moment.

As I've stepped off a lot of people have said ‘oh my god why are you doing that?', but I've done it so that it will get bigger. Because it can't get any bigger with me running around saying ‘grime is mine'.

So are you retiring?

This is what I did: I retired from a scene that I was in, because I'm 28, and the average age is 15. So I can't be with them anymore, because I've got bigger visions, and I need to do other stuff. It's like being in the fifth year, and then passing every year, but not leaving. It's like ‘why are you staying in the fifth year?!'

So beyond this album and this year you do intend to carry on making music?

Everyone keeps saying to me ‘why are you trying to do a Jay-Z??' and I'm thinking ‘well, I'm ten years younger than Jay-Z'. So I'm not trying to do a Jay-Z. What I'm trying to do is, in my scene where it's violent and stuff, I don't want her [his daughter] to go through stuff, like if I'm walking down the street with her, and then fifty kids come... I don't want to go through that, I can't. For the child's sake. So I had to step out.

But when I looked at how old Jay-Z was, and seen that I'm ten years younger than Jay-Z I thought ‘so I have actually got ten years'. So I am going to keep going. But in the next five years I'm going to go hard. Like hardhardhard.. so people think ‘rah, what has he done? What is he doing? I thought he retired!' So just let people talk innit, really.

Are you worried about the creeping influence of US beats and influences on UK street music?

As a producer... if you think you're a worldwide producer, no music, no barrier will stop you. My Dad has shown me loads of different genres of music, so any music could influence me... country and western music could. So, I think that the American influence is there, but not just the American influence, I just think any type of music can influence me.

Have you noticed the trend in producers making less rave-friendly beats?

Yeah. They're not danceable.

How do you feel about that?

Well I like to dance. So I do like danceable music. But at the same time, I might make a song where I was not in a dancing or funny mood, so the song wasn't dance or funny. But I understand. Because I've gone to a grime rave and I feel like there's no dancing music anymore. It's just... stiff.

It's our feeling that that's largely because there's no raves, so there's less of an incentive for producers to make rave-friendly tunes.

Yeah. The rave scene as well... I give up on that, as it goes. Because I don't want to have a rave where I put all my money up, and some kid comes along and stabs someone, and then our name's tarnished, I've lost all my money. I would give up. Though I feel if it was moved out of London more, that it might work slightly better. But I'm in London, and what's going on in London is a bit deep, if you're trying to have a rave. Or Europe, or somewhere else. The grime raves can happen, loads of them, but just London right now... it ain't safe.

We had to go all the way to Swindon for Sidewinder, to see artists from just down the road from us in London

Yeah that's silly. That is definitely silly.

It's a shame, because for a whole generation of kids for whom it might be their favourite kind of music, it's something they can't enjoy in a club

Exactly. It is bad. The Police have done this: if you want to have an event they have to be present, and some people take that on and some people don't. But really you've got to take it on. No-one wants their child going out there and not coming home.

What would you say to people who say that musically there was a golden era for grime, and that it was three or four years ago?

Nahh, it takes time, it takes ten, fifteen, twenty years to build a scene. Which is another reason why I retired, because I thought ‘you know what, I'm 28 – when it's peaking I ain't even going to be here'. I don't want to be Grandmaster Flash. So nah, grime hasn't had its day. It's got ages. It's been five or six years. So it's got 14, and in 14 I'll be... well I'll be old. [lol]

So do you see grime reaching a point where it crosses over as much as American hiphop did?

Yeah, I do. I've got the leaders of the new skool. I've got em – I know who they are. They are Scorcher... [turns around to start compiling chart of grime's future] Skepta's getting a bit old, he's pushing on, but he'll be there. Bashy. These people, they're in the game. It's like they want to show me how good they are. Can you imagine that? I'm just a dad – or a granddad, they call me. And they're in the booth, they're trying to show me what they can do. And I'm like, well that means that despite the wars and despite everything, you do actually look to me for an ‘ok', or a tick in the box or something, but they do look. And that's a good thing. That means they haven't just been here to clash with me. They actually learned off me before they even knew me! That's a good thing.

But I definitely think Scorcher... for the future. Also there's another kid called Ice Kid – he's 15 – I've got him under my wing. Also JME – these are the people to watch.

On the subject of Boy Better Know and the Tunnel Vision series, how did you end up coming out with so much music in one year?

Because I was under strain! One day I was saying to Skepta ‘I need to do a mix CD' because there seemed to be a few people doing mix-CDs, and everyone else was just being quiet. So I started collecting beats, planning to do five Tunnel Visions. I was going mad with it, looking at my computer with Tunnel 1 to 5, filling them up, and writing... every second. I went a bit mad, I was just a studio rat for a while. I wouldn't leave there, I was just on that. When I got to Volume 4 I thought ‘let me slow down a bit, I'm trying to do too much here'. So I finished 4, and then 5 weren't really happening, but I squeezed it out.

Since Tunnel 5 I've been working on two new ones, called Umbrella Volume 1 and Ten Pound An Hour Volume 1. Because when I did stop I thought ‘right I've got to stop these mix CDs, it's driving me mad' and then one day I got bored, so I started again.

As for Boy Better Know, it's a really strong thing. The reason I don't try and control it or walk off with it is because I believe JME is the founder of it, it's he's. So I just respect that it's he's and I will work for him if he needs me. But obviously I want my own Boy Better Know, in theory. That's what I really want. In fact I'm thinking of taking the Roll Deep name and just running off with it, because I'm the one who's made it.

Were you happy with what happened with Roll Deep, regarding ‘In At The Deep End', and the watered-down singles that were released to promote it?

No, not really. But it was my opinion against seven or eight others, who might not agree with me all the time. And then they come back later and say ‘ah, I should have listened to you'. So that's not their fault, but it's just what they done at the time. But sometimes there I weren't in the picture, because I just thought ‘I don't want to go down that road'. I wish I could have just done a grime album and put it out, but that label was never going to hear that though.

So it was Reckless who were making all those decisions about content?

Yeah of course. Part of it was that we were in the studio thinking ‘we need to make an album for England, to please England' so we went in that direction. But then half-way through making the album, ‘Pow' came out, and I thought ‘sheeeet, I don't need to please England, all I need to do is just do what I was doing'. When Roll Deep were like ‘we're going to do r'n'b and this and that'... it just weren't it.

That's the main argument for grime not needing to soften its sound for the mainstream: ‘Pow' hit the Top Ten out of nowhere.

Exactly. And I'm sitting there thinking ‘this is Lethal B even!' [lol]. I don't put him down, he's good, he's my friend, but Lethal B?! And I'm sitting here thinking ‘look how good I am man, and he's just pulled this off!', and I've got these from Roll Deep saying [adopts Eeyore voice] ‘nahh, grime's dead now'. I had to go away. I had to leave Roll Deep, you know? Because I couldn't hear them. I couldn't. They're like ‘grime's dead...' and I'm like ‘yeah but that's who we are'.

Do you feel Rules and Regulations is better though?

Yeah, there you go. Even while that was getting made I was lurking around, putting a bit of everything in and then going back away. But when I listened to that I was like ‘rah that's a bit more like it'. Ysee Roll Deep was the crew to be in, nowadays there's other little crews, who, if I joined them, I could turn them into... yknow? I look at The Movement, or little kids who are just starting their thing. And I think ‘rah, they have what Roll Deep had'. The wanting to go home and practice on the mic, and Roll Deep haven't got that anymore because they've had money, so they're just stuck in the money loop, always trying to make money, when in actual fact, when you make your best music is when you've got no money.

Do you miss that rawness? That hunger?

I don't, because I've still got it. I always get around those kids who are starving.

Do you think it's a problem that a lot of grime's fans are only willing to take the music for free off the internet, rather than actually buying the music?

If I was a kid I would be taking them off there, so I can't argue. Not everyone's got money, and if you can get something for free, you will get it for free. But if there's an official thing, a Wiley album or a Lethal or Kano or Dizzee album there on the shelves, I would buy it just for the love, and I would hope they would too.

Were Tunnel Vision 1 and 2 put up for free download to counteract mp3 thieves then?



Yeah, Tunnel Vision 1 and 2 were put up there because I lost them. So I figured whoever's found them is going to put them up there anyway, so I better do it first.

There's this new Kano track called ‘Is This Grimey Enough?', and...

[interrupting] Yeah, it's not. [LOL] And I'll be the first person to tell him it's not, because I'm going to do a song called ‘It's Not Grimey Enough'. I'm just waiting... I have to make the right choice of beat to make sure it's definitely grimier than that one. But I am going to do it. I've been telling Skepta to do it, but it's like no-one wants to go on Kano, they just want to leave him and let him sail off. You've got to get on to them. But he is good though, he is good.

I've been listening to Dizzee and Kano on Logan's show actually, and to me they ain't good anymore. In this scene today the level of MC-ing, the high jump bar is here, and youse ain't spitting to that bar, but then you was, one day. But because you left and haven't been here for a little while, I can't blame you. But they ain't as good as they used to be. Because I'm sitting at home thinking ‘rah I'm actually good now' when I write a bar I'm like ‘I'm actually gone now', I can feel it. But I listen to them and I think ‘you used to be gone', they used to inspire me but now, they're not really saying much.

Do you think your MC-ing is up there because you continue to mix it with the kids who are coming through, who've still got the hunger?

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. That's why I'm telling you now that this kid here, Scorcher, he will give Dizzee and Kano so much trouble. They will be in trouble, I swear to God they will be in trouble! The kids... it's what they're saying, they're too fresh from school. Way too fresh. They're talking about molecules and stuff..!

Going back, the point I was going to make about ‘Is This Grimey Enough?'  was: it's going to be on Kano's underground mixtape, but not on his officially released album, and...

Exactly! So what was the point in that? [tuts] What were you trying to show?

To me that attitude isn't going to help grime in the mainstream.

Yeah, it's not. But you see Kane, he doesn't care anyway, he's on a next ting. Because I was actually with him before he got there, and I took him to meet his manager, and took him to his label, and helped him get through the door, because I was already through the door, so I wasn't fussed, I was just glad to get him through the door.

I've realised that when someone does get through the door, they sit back and think ‘what do I like, musically? Because that's what I want to do now'. Miss Dynamite done it – she got through the door, and went ten million miles away from ‘Boo' and done what she wanted to do. I don't hate people for doing that. A lot of people do that, they get through the door and they think ‘right, I want to work with this reggae person...' and they just forget where they've come from.

Even Durrty Goodz, I heard some of his album, and it's all American and I'm like ‘why has he gone and done that?'. You know why? Because he's working with ignorants who love Americans. So that ignorant geezer, he's told Goodz ‘spit like this' and now Goodz is running along sounding like he's from the dirty south. So where is he going? I laugh.

Jamie from Big Dada rings me and you know what? I'm just so glad I'm here because this is so normal. I've just made an album that IS grime. So when people hear it... Goodz' album might fly by, and I might just be hitting, as the only one who's stuck to it, and the others have all gone mad.

Did the Big Dada album come about because of all the work you put in last year, all those Tunnel Vision mixtapes?

Nah, my little friend Geeneus, who owns Rinse, he used to have talks with Jamie, and he got me talking to them. 2nd Phaze would've been it – 2nd Phaze should have come out on Big Dada, but the negotiations were a bit long. And then, when I was selling 2nd Phaze and Big Dada weren't signing me yet, that was another reason I started the Tunnels, I thought ‘shit, IF they don't sign me... I'm 28, and if this doesn't happen these mix-CDs are going to have to be my money innit'.

Big Dada are the only label I've ever met who are like XL or 679. And that's my job: to help Big Dada's name come into my scene, the way XL and 679 did. Because I was in the studio the other day, and already Bashy was saying to me ‘so what's your label like?' Because I was the only artist who got signed! All through the year everyone was showing off, going mad saying ‘I'm this, I'm that' and I was staying down, and now people are ringing me saying ‘what's your label like?' and I'm thinking ‘rah, I thought you had a situation already over there!'.

Are you going to help sign more grime artists to Big Dada then?

Yeah, if it can work. Because Big Dada do understand this: you should take low money up front. It's not bad. A Sony label would just throw money at them and they think ‘we're in business', but in actual fact they're not. Low money is the best thing you can take, I promise you. I don't know why I didn't go for it before, just say ‘you know what I don't want 100 grand, just give me 20 and I'm just going to make that album, and do the work, and fulfil the terms'. Because otherwise if I've got 100 grand or 200 I'll just be so happy that you might not see me for a few years. So low money is a good thing.

And Big Dada's a big label, but you know I didn't even realise that. I'm running around London and I didn't even realise that.

I suppose it's just different scenes

Exactly. And I'll look at someone like Roots Manuva and think ‘he's getting a bit old as well', and I'm going to tap into where he's going. The 100,000 albums he sold: who did they sell to? Who are his fans?

Students.

Is it? See that's what I'm on, trying to tap in.

What was your experience working with XL?

It was good, but I was in Dizzee's shadow. I was naturally jealous of him, and they were focusing on him, and not really concerned about me. He did Boy in Da Corner and they worked on that for a year, and then I was coming along, but disheartened. When really I should've just gone in and made the best album of my life, and then I wouldn't have been through all that. But they are a good label, it's just that me and Dizzee on the same label wasn't going to work. There was a conflict of interest there.

Is retiring another way of looking to become an artist in your own right?

Yeah exactly. Because since I've retired I'm not in a rat race. Because in the grime scene, every week you've got to be coming up with something or if there's wars going on or you've got beef. I just wanted to not have to do nothing blud, to do it if I wanted to do it. I don't want to have to write a bar just because he's written a bar, yknow? I tried to step out, and now I've stepped out I can see better. And then I thought ‘hold on, for the last seven years, everyone's just been watching me'.

So now I'm going to step out and watch them, and that might keep me going an extra ten years. But they definitely have – all the time I've been running around, fighting, getting stabbed, everything I've been going through they've just been watching me, saying ‘well I'm not going to do that'. And that's the winner innit?! They've got the path then, from watching me!

Tell us about the album

I've collected beats off people, and put it together. Because I've never done an album like this, I've always been under pressure, always. They've let me do what I wanted to do, so I'm quite happy.

Who did you get beats off?

Scratcher, JME, this little boy called Maniac from Bow. I done a little tune with Geeneus as well.

Can you explain why Geeneus, when he plays down FWD now, won't drop a single grime beat or garage beat, it's just straight dubstep?

Yeah you know why? This is what he's trying to do. You see how Roni Size has run off with the jungle or drum 'n' bass scene, so that it's his? That is what he's trying to do. They're looking at grime going 'nah, it's just kids going mad, forget about that, but dubstep is our thing. I'm Randall. I'm Grooverider'. But really no-one's no-one.

I like dubstep though, and I will go over there and say 'I'm Ray Keith'.

[discussion about Skream (‘I like him') proceeds, followed by an inquest into the lack of grime at FWD]

Don't worry, grime ain't dead. It would never die. If I died even, in real life, and touch wood I'm not gonna, it would only blow up a million times. People would be like ‘reh reh the godfather's dead' and it would just blow up anyway. I say that because people say [pathetic voice] ‘grime's dead man, there's no money...'. And I just tell them ‘it's just me who's leaving, because I've got two kids. I can't walk around with youse on radio anymore, because I have got to buy Pampers.' They feel like it's dead. But it's not dead, it's a very powerful genre.

Can we keep the list you were writing?

Let me rewrite it for you. [takes new piece of paper and starts scribbling] That's me at the top, I'm Master Yoda. But these kids are the leaders of the new skool. The first one is Scorcher, because he's the first one who's shown me he can do all kinds of stuff: if I took him to America he could stand up on any block, anywhere and do it, and they wouldn't be able to say much.

Then obviously Skepta and JME. Trim.

What's happening with him?

He's there, he's there. He's just gone through all that madness in Ayia Napa with Marcus Nasty and NASTY Crew, and he's come back home going mad, talking about it all. Best thing that could ever have happened to him. Trim's definitely there.

Then Ghetto... there's more than this, but these are definitely definitely guaranteed. And especially Scorcher. He's the one. He's on the album, on Flyboy Remix... Ice Kid as well, though he's only a younger. He's like 15, but he is the cleverest 15 year old you will ever know, cleverer than Dizzee, cleverer than anyone.

How do you feel about the lack of vinyl that's about?



I'm upset. I am upset. Because vinyl was my earnings. It slowed down ages ago, which is why I started having to sell mix CDs.

How many vinyl records did you sell when you used to shift them out of a car boot?

Loads, over 50,000. For those whole two years I just had loose change in my pockets the whole time. That was the best time of my life, where I earned all my own money. And then I got a record deal, and I just had too much money. I was too young! I didn't know what to do with all that money! I'll be honest with you, I really didn't. And I didn't really have a figure telling me what to do with it. I had people in my ear saying ‘buy property! (oh and lend me five hundred)'.

But I was young, I didn't know what to do. Now I do. Gas and electric, innit?

 

'leaders of the new skool':